Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult ? - Alcohol & Substance Abuse, Addiction, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Cult & Depression

	Mark Dombeck, Ph.D. Essays and Blogs Concerning Mental and Emotional Health
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We've got a comment system on Mental Help Net, and lately we've been getting a lot of comments regarding an old essay I wrote concerning Alcoholics Anonymous. The essay, titled "AA is to shame as a hot knife is to butter", presents a generally positive view of the Alcoholic's Anonymous fellowship and twelve step programs in general. The positive view expressed in that essay came out of my experience working for a year (during my postdoctoral fellowship) in a partial hospital program (otherwise known as an IOP or Intensive Outpatient Program) for dually diagnosed people. Dual diagnosis means that you have two diagnoses: one is an addiction, and the other a serious mental disorder. So, we dealt with people who were schizophrenic, and alcoholic, or bipolar and using cocaine. That sort of thing. Many of our clients' lives were complicated by severe poverty and homelessness. The sicker you get, the further down the socio-economic scale you tend to fall.

Our partial hospital program dealt with addiction issues and mental health issues simultaneously, but always prioritized the addictions, on the theory that you cannot benefit much from psychiatric or psychological attention when you are intoxicated. We did drug screenings every day using breath tests, urine, and occasionally blood. Patients found to be intoxicated were sent home for the day. Patients who had recently relapsed into using their drug(s) of choice were asked to talk about it in a group therapy session in which the therapists (sometimes myself) helped the group to identify the behaviors and triggers and thought patterns that had led up to the relapse. There were other forms of therapy, and lots of psychiatric medication, and lots of attention in general. There was also AA, a process deemed so important by my clinical superiors that they had integrated it directly into their program, actually having meetings occur within the hospital, and us bringing our patients there during scheduled time periods.

My positive impression of AA came out of that year of experience; watching the patients rise and fall and noting when people were able to keep it together and when they weren't. You could pretty much tell who was going to use after a little while. The folks most likely to use (or never stop using) were those most deeply in denial about their drug problem; who could not submit to the idea that their drug use was actually a problem. The ones who could never settle on a sponsor; who would lie to you saying that they had not used recently, when you had their positive urine test results in your hand.

My experience with AA was never very much first hand. I have been to exactly two AA meetings in my life. Both were observational in nature, a "field trip" if you will, so that I could see what I was recommending to my patients. What I saw during those two meetings was non-remarkable. People speaking about their drinking issues and receiving support from the group; pretty much what you'd expect. These experiences took the novelty of the thing away from me, but hardly qualify as a good sample of what AA is about. More to the point, my impression of AA's usefulness came from our patients, and from our staff, a few of whom were in recovery themselves. The point was made in my head that addicts are unable at first to control their own behavior, and thus need and benefit from programs like AA that help to set limits on them.

The rub is that AA asks its participants to submit to a higher power, God as you understand him, or "good orderly direction". And many people, addicts and non-addicts alike, deeply dislike the idea of needing to submit to a higher power. They rightly distrust and dislike even more the idea that the higher power they are submitting to might be selfish in nature, or twisted, or power-hungry and looking to dominate. They dislike what they see to be the cultist aspects of AA, as is readily apparent in this comment (which I declined to append to the essay itself because there are already a number of comments there expressing this very point), but which I will reproduce here):

It's a bit hard for me to read this sort of thing, because the person who wrote it obviously has felt very damaged by AA, a group that someone recommended to him or her, because they thought it would help. I don't doubt that this person has had a bad experience, has felt abused, perhaps was abused. It's sad.

Its no secret that AA's focus on submission to a higher power has broad potential for abuse. That focus on submission and making ammends is there for a very important reason - it encourages the growth of empathy and social solidarity in participant addicts; qualities which help them resist the lure of their drugs. And yet, that very submission also comes with a terrible vulnerability. it is important that anyone teaching submission as a way of life also be a kind and loving person, because otherwise, that submission becomes the basis for cult-like cohesion, as the commenter points out. Sociopathic types who also tend to be addicts are very likely to get themselves into AA and then use it for their selfish purposes. At any given moment within AA, there are going to be people who are honestly struggling with remaining sober and people who are using and not admitting it, or not taking the steps necessary to end it; people who understand hurt and who want to help others stop hurting and people who are all too willing to use other people for selfish purposes.

"Stick With The Winners" was the slogan I liked the best. Some meetings are better than others, because there is more beneficial order and kindness available there, and less sociopathy and sickness. If you are an addict in a twelve step situation, and you find that situation abusive (and not simply limiting of your urges), it seems to me that you need to find a better meeting; not quit entirely.

What are your thoughts? There must be some people out there who feel they have benefited from AA and twelve step. There must be other people who feel abused or put off by the process too. Do you have any advice or comments for the person who wrote the above comment? For me (grin!), as a doctor (like so many doctors) willing to write about and recommend things he has not lived or experienced first hand himself? Can there be submission to a higher power without abuse taking place? How do you handle abusive attitudes and individuals within AA and other twelve step programs? What are the merits of twelve step. And if you can't think of any merits, what are the better alternatives?

Mark Dombeck, Ph.D. is Director of Mental Help Net (a public service of CenterSite.Net - a provider of website and internet services and educational content to employee assistance and behavioral health organizations), and a licensed Psychologist in the state of Ohio (License #5698).

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—I reference a sociological characterization and I "sound like a sexist and racist" (although Scully thinks I made a good point)

—I respond to Allan Schwartz's appeal and I am off topic on a "separate issue."

—I share that a half dozen women drew straws on my one year anniversary to see who would break my vow of celibacy and I am the one who "goes to a meeting with sex on their mind."

(—I even said to Tony J, "Your passion as expressed in your posts is honest, and that I appreciate"—and I meant it)

I have a pretty thick skin and all this is clearly small potatoes. But life is short, I am not getting any younger, and we all have to decide where to best spend our time. Perhaps it is my fault for not understanding what this blog is. My idea of sharing in any forum (clearly only one approach) has always been to find one thing that someone says and try to build positively on it with my experience, strength, and hope. I don't need to break anyone down—addiction does that job far better than I could. And I have no interest in debates that nobody wins and crosstalk based on unproven assumptions.

You sound like a great group of people, but I think my time could best be spent elsewhere. (Of course, this means that someone will call me out as a crybaby or a drama queen instead of the good old southern boy with manners that I am. So be it.)

What's my personal experience with it? I see a guy and gal who met in A.A., are happily married, 18 and 20 years sober, have two beautiful and pleasant to be around children... and just a happy life.

I dated a gal in A.A. I was sober about just over a year and my 1st wife left me after I got sober... so...

After 2 weeks of dating, she came to my apt to cook me dinner. My phone rang. It never rang. It was for her... and she'd only been to my pad once before. It was her friend from Evergreen Colorado. She was renting her pad out so she could move to Aspen. Trust fund baby... must be nice. So, my new girlfriend asked me to move in with her. After two weeks. "Nothing the matter here ma!"

So I did. I tried to break up with her after about 5 months... and she bought me a puppy. After 10 months she tried to keep me from watching John Elway Super Bowl reruns on "her" TV... and she got physical with me. So I divorced her right there.

I was talking to a guy outside of a meeting last night. He was smoking a cig. We were talking about guys who date "baby ducks". This gal overheard us talking and she said, "I'm 2 days sober!" =)

Show me a woman who's a victim. Keep your legs crossed. Men who are new; the odds are good but the odds are good. Why in the heck would you want to get involved with a sick alky? It's like cripples trolling for cripples. Get real.

.... Not every AA is a sexual predator! Still, when 50% of surveyed women report being 13th stepped and two report being raped by fellow AA's it is cause for alarm.

On a personal note myself, I'm a woman and was in my mid-30s when I quit drinking and went to AA. I was attractive and in good shape (still am). My sponsor's husband used to literally stand guard over me at the meetings. He's a huge guy and not a single male came anywhere near me. So who tried to get into my pants? The women, who were able to fly under the radar. Two of them tried, one even offered me money! "

As far as you being so hot that you needed a body gaurd and Mike C having 'cougars' waiting to pounce on him.....I think the casual observer can see who goes to a meeting with sex on their mind.

As is usual in this bebate the line has been crossed between a true evil (sexual predators) and normal human behavior (men and women expressing sexual interest in each other).

I didn't post the study about 13th stepping to suggest that males are the only culprits. I am well aware that females are guilty of it too. I'm also aware that the practice isn't universal. Not every AA is a sexual predator! Still, when 50% of surveyed women report being 13th stepped and two report being raped by fellow AA's it is cause for alarm.

Far be it from me to deny anyone the opportunity to hook up. But I have to wonder. Should people seeking help with one addiiction be referred to a program in which another is lurking not so deep beneath the surface? I mean, in a professional environment we have policies governing our relationships with clients and co-workers. This helps enforce a code of conduct and is good for morale and discipline.

AA has none of these controls in place. It is open season on everyone and everything. We have seen the extremes already...Midtown and Mike Q. AA enables this abuse...a hallmark of any cult.

Let's face it, in AA booze has given way to caffeine, nicotine, and endorphins. Bill W's true legacy. (didn't he also ask for whiskey on his deathbed?).

Hi Michael

I think that the problems of AA have to be dealt with as a separate issue from the discussion on how to deal with addiction. Most of AA's problems have little to do with addiction. AA's religious prejudice, inbred culture, date ideas and other issues are a singular issue. The same could be said of other self-help groups if any of them refuse to change, grow and/or improve.

William

I think if the moderators stopped listening to the trouble makers that are complaining via pm and e-mail, they could let the people who are choosing to participate in this discussion go. There has been nothing out of line lately. Sometimes there is, but Allen's warning was for nothing.

Thanks so much for your posting about 13th-stepping. At the risk of "bogarting" the blog:

The sexual issues in AA are difficult to broach on a personal level, so let me open up a little. Entering the program as an average-looking, 6 foot, 25 year old, unemployed male with an 180 lb chiseled physique, my old-school sponsor (who was counseled by Dr. Bob on this particular issue) enforced a vow of celibacy for my first year—in retrospect, a little heavy-handed, but workable for me. As my anniversary approached, the local 40-something "cougars" (no disrespect intended) circled like sharks. On that fateful day a half dozen of them drew straws to decide who would "check to see if the equipment still worked." I didn't fight it, but I didn't like it much either—imagine a man actually complaining about feeling like a piece of meat.

When I hit my late forties with my 5'11" , somewhat less well-defined 220 lb frame—but with a good job, no kids, and an ex-wife with no alimony payments—a similar group of 40-something "cougars" started accosting me at meetings. Operating from a "position of strength"( I can't find a better phrase) as a male, I was able to diffuse the situation without incident and without hurting their feelings. I know it's not the same as the reverse situation—that's sort of the point of the story.

Now as I push towards a single, robust 54, I find the 28-32 year-olds in the Program developing what, for the purposes of ego-management, I characterize as "old-man crushes." Though tempted, I take the high road, refer them to women in the Fellowship, and take a cold shower when necessary.

First off id like to clarify that I am grateful that AA was there for me to attend when I first got sober. I had no idea what to do with my free time the minute I made up my mind to stop drinking. It was a fun place to go to socialize. I was introduced to new people and I was really interested in "getting spiritual". My whole world was completely full of anxiety, i was literally "shakin and bakin" as we like to call it. I took most of the suggestions and memorized all the slogans and used them constantly to "stay in the moment". I stuck around my homegroup long enough for my mind to clear up. Got tired of the high drama of my homegroup and the double standards that so many people in the rooms have. So I joined another group after a while the same thing. Ive met some incredibly nice, caring people in the rooms and ive met the most scumiest sociopaths there too. The strong overbearing personalities seem to always be in charge. Its funny how the people with the most time usually are super smug and proud of their time. You dont even have to ask them how long have they been sober, they always say it every chance they get. Its the opposite of humility IMO. The one who can Quote Bill and Bobs big book the most wins! You know they say priciples before personalities but thats not the way it really works and anybody thats been in the rooms for a while knows that, unless of course the steps have put them above human emotion.lol Anyway like I said Im grateful that there was a place for me to go but nowadays I take it with a grain of salt. I was brainwashed and I probably needed to be but nowadays "i see things differently"

"...your lives do not depend on convincing the others that you are right and they are wrong."

Respectfully; Au contraire, Dr Schwartz! Although your call for civil discourse is much appreciated, we have shown over and over again as a species that we will destroy the Self to protect the Self-Image:

"Conflicts of representation are painful for a variety of reasons. On a practical level, it is painful to have a model of reality that conflicts with those of the people around you. The people around you soon make you aware of that. But why should this conflict worry people, if a model is only a model, a best guess at reality that each of us makes? Because nobody thinks of it that way. If the model is the only reality you can know, then that model is reality, and if there is only one reality, then the possessor of a different model must be wrong."

So before "we discuss how we can deal with an epidemic addiction problem in our nation" instead of warring against one another, perhaps we should address the war within that is at the root of all addictive behavior (and all bad behavior on this post)—the struggle between gain and loss, between praise and blame, between pleasure and pain, between fame and disrepute. I'm in.

Abstract from an article entitled: 13th-Stepping: Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Not Always a Safe Place for Women.

"Thirteenth-stepping" is a euphemistic term used among members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to refer to people (particularly men) who target new, more vulnerable members (typically women) for dates or sex. Previous research suggests that women frequently experience sexual harassment in AA meetings and even in chemical dependency treatment settings. The objective of this survey study is to describe the frequency of various 13th-stepping experiences in a sample of women involved in AA.Fifty-five women, aged 17-72 years, completed an anonymous survey to describe their experiences with 13th-stepping by men in AA. Results showed that at least 50% of the participants had at least occasionally experienced seven of the thirteen 13th-stepping behaviors listed in the survey. Also, compared to women who had never attended a female-only AA group, women who had attended such groups reported more 13th-stepping experiences from their attendance at coed groups. Two of the study participants volunteered that men they met in AA had raped them.It is important that chemical dependency treatment providers be aware of 13th-stepping in AA, particularly when treating women. Especially vulnerable women, such as those with histories of sexual abuse, should be referred to female-only groups when possible. When women's groups are unavailable, women should be adequately prepared to protect themselves from 13th-stepping."

I think ifyou look at the last few weeks of posts you'll see that it's Tony J. that has directed the most sarcasm/bitterness to everyone. I also see that he has had either his own threads shut down in the other forum, or has been the reason for getting threads locked.

I see his rationale...make a big enough stink until all discourse comes to a halt. Typical bully tactic.

Dr. Dombeck's Note: "It takes two to tango" as they say. A little of what you say is correct (e.g., thread locking), but if no one responded back angrily, the tactic would not gain much traction. Rejecting a post on the basis of it being negatively directed towards another poster puts an undue censorship burden on the editors who do the comment checking. Would you want to be the person making those calls? Once again I will appeal for less fighting here. It's childish from both sides. Has it not gotten through anyones head yet that there is more than one truth here? Those of you who continue to believe that you've got a lock on the truth and the "other guys" are just wrong, please read this essay I wrote some time ago about developmental psychologist Robert Kegan's take on the development of social-emotional maturity.

I have read many of these recent comments and I am distressed to see that people are continuing to be sarcastic, rude and rejecting to one another.

I want to remind all of you that you are not running for election and that your lives do not depend on convincing the others that you are right and they are wrong.

Finally, I want to remind everyone that a more beneficial approach might be to discuss how we can deal with an epidemic addiction problem in our nation instead of having all of your war against one another.

" I once shared at a step mtg. that I had not done my fifth step and had no intentions on ever doing it. I explained to the group that I had paid off all my debts and had made all possible apologies to whoever my drinking effected. The old timers and others at the group showed anger, dissapointment and contempt towards me after that. I had to listen to people share back at me for the duration of the mtg. Telling me im gonna drink again if I dont do this 5th step. One old timer said the guilt would feel like a nail being hammered slowly into my brain if I didnt do this step! lol And this wasnt a poor section 8 type group , it was quite the opposite. Anyway its been over 7 years since that mtg. and I havent even had an urge to drink yet. Im still waiting."

Hey surferguy. It seems to me like you worked the steps, if only informally. You made amends to people you felt you had harmed. So, would I assume you would feel guilt after having made amends....no, I would not.

I suspect the group was steering the discussion to the 'right' way to work the steps as opposed to 'your' way. The group has the responsibility to carry the AA message, which is to do the steps as they are outlined in the BB. They may have been sharing less 'back at you' than 'towards' the new guy.

AA can only offer what AA has. If you want to try another method of sobriety or start your own, you are free to do that. When you sit at a meeting telling old timers you 'broke the rules' and are still sober, you just seem like a typical alcoholic to me. Defiance is the outstanding characteristic, after all. :)

Mona Lisa I agree. If one is honest with themselves in AA they must realize other avenues can help people recover and even the big book recognizes this

I think Michael C brought up a very good point earlier. There are certain personalities who seem to flourish in the rooms. I had seen the same things he describes in my year long experience in AA. People who are arrogant to begin with have a much easier time with the whole "ego deflation" part of the steps. Back in the 1930's, the "arrogant drinker" may very well have been the sterotypical alcoholic, but in this day and age, alcoholics come in such a variety, that it is ridiculous to say that the can all be "treated" the same way.

I think AA was designed for a very specific person in mind. The white, male, upper-middle class, arrogant, lasped christian. In my experience, females, those of lower socio-economic classes, dual diagnsosis patients, people with low self esteems, atheists, agnostics, and non-lasped christians/jewish/etc struggle with the "program."

I think it is foolish to assume that ALL alcoholics have ego problems. It is also foolish to assume that ALL alcoholics have lapsed faith in god, and will just swallow up the AA "higher power" with no problem. When I came in to AA, I had never lost faith in god, I had lost faith in myself. And it was impossible for me to just set aside my faith in god and my beliefs, and adopt the aa version of god and faith. I could not turn my back on my faith, even with the threat of "jails, death, etc"

Mike : "Think about it. Most of the old timers in that room likely have little going for them except for the fact that they have such and such years sober."

Mike, this is a common theme with you. That you are somehow better than the people in AA. This might be more believable if you didn't spend 19 years in AA yourself.

Also, I know plenty of old timers in AA who have alot going for them. Lawyers, business men, professional people of all walks, tradesman etc......

"People like you and me really are a pain in the rear ends because we possess the holy grail of sobriety, while simultaneously rejecting the junk science and lazy theology that goes with the program."

Don't flatter yourself Mike. Plenty of people in AA accept the fact that people can and do get sober outside of AA. People like me challenge you because you repeat gossip and propaganda like what you get off the Orange site. They are two different issues.

People in AA generally don't care what you do. Some, like me, think of the new guy who can easily be led down the wrong path.

If you have the Holy Grail, then you should spend some time telling drunks about it. Instead you do your best to steer them away from AA but have no better alternative for them. You could very easily be helping people sign their own death warrant. Which is a pitty

People like you and me really are a pain in the rear ends because we possess the holy grail of sobriety...

Yes. The idea that someone might quit drinking and maintain sobriety without AA really seems to frost them--which is why they try to dismiss us by saying that (a) we were never real alcoholics, or (b) we aren't really sober, we are dry drunks.

1. “You sound like a sexist and a racist” is almost an ad hominem attack, but I stand by my admittedly inflammatory phrasing.Your passion as expressed in your posts is honest, and that I appreciate.

2. The phrase “arrogant white men with a sense of entitlement” distills to an essence a commonly held sociological characterization of the general make-up of early AA—even Bill and Dr Bob never disputed this. Although the membership has changed the culture lags behind: my observation, anecdotal of course, is that those who proselytize most aggressively that the Steps work for them still fall into this group. And dare I say it…most of the women and African-Americans who I have sponsored over the years find the message of personal powerless distasteful (and yes, I know this is not exclusive, but again we cannot hide behind the myth that the AA culture, as expressed in the Fellowship & Program, is gender or racially neutral—neither can help but reflect, however subtly concealed, the same racism and sexism we find in society at large), which leads me to my next point.

3. It would be nice if “ego-deflation” referred only to “alcohol and the addicts perception of having control when they drink”—that would be a most intelligent application of the Steps. But to paraphrase one example, (I don’t have any literature with me) “The Steps are all about ego-deflation, and fewer are harder to take then Step 5.” Perhaps we can ask surferguy (great last post, by the way) what Step 5 has to do with his perception of having control when he drinks.

I had to listen to people share back at me for the duration of the mtg. Telling me im gonna drink again if I dont do this 5th step. One old timer said the guilt would feel like a nail being hammered slowly into my brain if I didnt do this step!

Thanks for the comment, surferguy. You hit on a core aspect of AA as a whole: it really is more about AA than the alcoholic. Those people who rejected you really did not care about you or your sobriety, they cared about your doubt. This is a key characteristic of a cult...the upholding of dogma at all costs.

Think about it. Most of the old timers in that room likely have little going for them except for the fact that they have such and such years sober. Their identity is grounded in this. They use the lazy theology contained in the steps as the glue that binds their superficial relations with other like-minded people in the halls.

People like you and me really are a pain in the rear ends because we possess the holy grail of sobriety, while simultaneously rejecting the junk science and lazy theology that goes with the program.

I once shared at a step mtg. that I had not done my fifth step and had no intentions on ever doing it. I explained to the group that I had paid off all my debts and had made all possible apologies to whoever my drinking effected. The old timers and others at the group showed anger, dissapointment and contempt towards me after that. I had to listen to people share back at me for the duration of the mtg. Telling me im gonna drink again if I dont do this 5th step. One old timer said the guilt would feel like a nail being hammered slowly into my brain if I didnt do this step! lol And this wasnt a poor section 8 type group , it was quite the opposite. Anyway its been over 7 years since that mtg. and I havent even had an urge to drink yet. Im still waiting.

"Try this on: in my 29 years in the Program I have noticed that (anecdotally, of course) arrogant white men with a sense of entitlement need ego-deflation and the Steps work quite well for this. However, I have also noticed that, for those who have been systematically abused throughout their lives or who have a dual diagnosis, working the Steps as they are written can turn disastrous. "

Second of all, the 'ego deflation' is in regards to alcohol and the addicts perception of having control when they drink. A person who has been abused can certainly have the same wrong ideas about his ability to control his drinking as a person who has not been. It's a non issue.

As for dual diagnosis, Bill would have been 'double trouble' today. Severe depression and panic attacks throughout his life. So, say what you will. The facts speak for themselves.

"If anyone has any advice on how to break the spell of AA before it destroys my wife and my marriage, I'd welcome resources. We have a small child and my wife has managed to even persuade herself that her own selfish behavior is somehow good for our daughter."

There is a major disconect going on here. Your wife feels she needs AA and you feel she doesn't.

I think you should invest some time with a good marriage counselor and find out why either you don't think your wife needs aa (if she is an alcoholic) or why she thinks she does (if she is not).

Since you've pitted yourself against her recovery (calling her friends losers etc.) you are playing a zero sum game. If you force her to choose between you and AA, you very well my lose. Sobriety is a good thing and people don't like to give it up once they get a taste of it.(also, you will pay her child support so she has no insentive to give in easily)

It's much better (imho) to focus on the family and the common ground you have as a couple. There are plenty of women who raise families and are good wives in AA. Maybe if you bend a little she can become one ?

I'm sorry about your marriage problems. This type of thing is not uncommon. A person substitutes one addiction with another. I got caught up in a pseudo-Christian cult when I was a few years into sobriety. AA is more of a social-therapeutic cult. I do believe though that it is the lesser of two evils, if the alternative means drinking/using again. I would gently try to get your wife involved with other (sober) social activities that you can both enjoy. This may help to wean her gradually off of AA.

She needs to become convinced that there is life after AA and that she can indeed stay sober outside of the halls. Most people end up doing this in the long run.

You might want to look at the Orange Papers, it's a pretty thoroughly researched web site that exposes the cultish aspects of AA and its fascist roots.

Three years ago my wife self-identified herself as an alcoholic and started attending AA meetings. Now three years later the pernicious influence of AA has brought her to the doorstep of seeking a divorce. AA has basically turned my wife into a selfish bitch. The informal motto of AA, I now understand, seems to be something like "I have to do what's right for me." My wife has interpreted this as a license to engage in every form of selfishness and self-indulgence to do anything she wants to, and to refuse to do anything she doesn't want to do, all in the name of her self-actualization.

There is another problem with AA--it simply cannot be healthy for any person to spend that many hours of their life hanging around with a roomful of losers. She found a therapist who is linked in with AA and attends a therapy group of losers one evening a week too. This much exposure to defective people seems to become a crutch and rationalization for one's own selfish, jerk behavior.

The core of AA seems to be this sophomoric, silly philosophy/psychology masquerading as wisdom. "I have to do what's right for me" is a childish, irresponsible view of the world that is a pure dead-end in terms of becoming a truly happy, competent, loving person.

If anyone has any advice on how to break the spell of AA before it destroys my wife and my marriage, I'd welcome resources. We have a small child and my wife has managed to even persuade herself that her own selfish behavior is somehow good for our daughter.

Glad a couple of people are challenging B.W.’s junk science. However, the more deeply one goes into the literature the more miserable the experience: the so-called experts cannot even agree on what “real” alcoholism is let alone what would count for “recovery.”

Without the hard numbers we are left to our common sense. Clearly, not all disease treatments work for everyone—in fact, some may even make the condition worse. A responsible Doctor points out the risks and lays out a full set of options for the patient—not to do so might open them up to malpractice. So when is the last time an AA sponsor warned a prospect that there is a chance that working the Steps as written might actually make their life worse?

Try this on: in my 29 years in the Program I have noticed that (anecdotally, of course) arrogant white men with a sense of entitlement need ego-deflation and the Steps work quite well for this. However, I have also noticed that, for those who have been systematically abused throughout their lives or who have a dual diagnosis, working the Steps as they are written can turn disastrous.

A little humility on both sides of the debating society is a prescription that desperately needs to be filled.

In December 2009 Grapevine there is a article titled "Overhaul". It talks about updating AA Literature. Of course it primary focuses on the age of the material instead of the compisition and messages.

Still it highlights many of the problems of the Literature such as "To Wives" or that "We Agnostics" should be written by real Secular People.

The article does not acknowledge the hostility in much of AA Literature toward Secular People, but it is a start.

Hi people I was reading through the posts and was happy as hell to see others see AA in the same way I do. I have been sober over 9 years and was heavily involved with AA my first 5. I took a coffee commitment and did my 90 in 90. After 90 days I started speaking at meetings on the advice of my sponser. I hated telling my story to others (even though It was well received). After a while my sponser asked me to move out of my sober house and into a house with him and I did. It wasnt long after that, that i started to notice things that were not right about him and his friends from program. He was super lazy and lied all the time. He even stole a couple hundred dollars from me when I was just getting on my feet and saving to buy a car. I dont know how he found my hiding spot. When I asked him about it he tried to deny it but I got real aggressive and he confessed that he had just barrowed the money and was gonna put it back someday! Then he went on and on saying I shouldnt get angry because alcoholics cant afford that luxury even justifiable anger! Needless to say I moved out soon after that. And this guy was a circuit speaker in AA. Which meens he has a solid reputation and is a perfect picture of a recovering alcoholic in AA. That is just one of many situations that have helped me change my mind about AA. I can say this, AA was a good place for me to go when I first was getting started. But the more I studied the Big Book the more I realized I would never be able to believe this hocus pocus. And whenever I shared something in a meeting that I didnt agree with about something the great Bill Wilson wrote, I would get cut off from talking or people would start getting mad. After a while I had to go. Now when I attend a mtg for fun I cant believe the things that come out of these peoples mouths. Yes AA is most definitely a cult.

As a Secular person all that I have observed that the AA foundations and Literature has for me is a message that would old destroy any chances for me to become a sober secular person. Every chance that the AA Authors had they threw a negative snipes or predicted a death for secular people only because they did not have a HP. So I have to ignore this AA message and make believe that it did not come from the same minds that wrote everything else in the AA Foundations. If this kind of thought does not deserve to be torn down than what does?

This makes me advise people to do a thorough investigation of all AA suggestions before accepting any of them.

About 23 million Americans have an addiction disorder. About ten percent of them will find their way to some form of intervention. The rest of those addicted will die in their disease. Of the ten percent who do find help, ninety percent of them will die in their disease. The tiniest percentage of all those currently addicted will find lasting sobriety, will actually die sober.

The Rand study pointed to 1/2 of all problem drinkers moderating over time. Of the remaining half who stopped, only 20% sought out treatment, the remainder quit on their own. Where did you get your stats?

"Prior to that fateful meeting of Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson in 1934, almost everyone who was alcoholic died a long, slow hideous death, while destroying the lives of their loved ones along the way. This was as true for Ancient Egyptians as was for Bill Wilson, as it is for me. chronic, progressive, and nearly always fatal."

Do you have any data to support this besides the fact that you've heard it at meetings?

Are you sober? Congratulations! Did you work the twelve steps of AA? Congratulations! Did you use some other method of recovery? Congratulations!

Prior to that fateful meeting of Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson in 1934, almost everyone who was alcoholic died a long, slow hideous death, while destroying the lives of their loved ones along the way. This was as true for Ancient Egyptians as was for Bill Wilson, as it is for me. chronic, progressive, and nearly always fatal.

It seems to me that to waste a single nanosecond of one’s sobriety trying to tear down any one else’s recovery process is the least sober thing a person could do. Like I said, if you didn’t use AA, congratulations! But I’m sure we’d all like to here your precise method of recovery rather than your complaints.

AA does indeed provide a convenient place to hideout. This is good early on in recovery if the alternative means bars and/or unhealthy friendships.

The problem that comes into play is that many people who stay in the halls become fixated on the meetings, ignoring personal growth in other areas of their lives. This issue is exacerbated by AA itself, which warns the member that leaving the fellowship will lead to "jails, institutions, or death". Fortunately, the vast majority of newcomers reject such nonsense and leave the halls within a year or two.

What remains however is a vocal minority who associate their self-identity (and self-esteem) with membership in a program which serves as their ersatz social group. This minority (aka old-timers) is really not there for the newcomer. They are there for themselves - the newcomer exists primarily to validate their decision to hang around.

Intresting your view on taking what you need and leaving, prsonally i agree having just become 4 yrs sober. well done me! 1 meeting a week and not keen on that at times. the sociopaths are a nuicence prying on the vulnerable and impresionable but this is reflection for me on the disfuncion they stumble into and find a place to stay. in truth for me alcoholics could come and go, but AA can be a convient place to hide from any real changes!

I liked your comment "do not make recovery your identity". I know so many people for AA is their life!! I would love to see a study on how much time some people spend in AA.

For me I drop in a meeting once in a while to keep in contact (mostly special events), you never know I may need AA once again, but I doubt it. Hopefully Lifering will further penetrate my area anyway :)

Online I merely take the time to highlight all of the bad qualities of AA because I look for the day when AA's negatives are just as acknowledged as its benefits.

AA has a few good tools. Please dont make recovery your whole identity. Take a few things and move on.

I am curious - under what form of compulsion are you to attend AA ? Perhaps I misunderstand - but it seems a bit strange. Generally, I think you have the right approach - get your brain (basically) straight, consider the program, and make up your own mind as to whether it will suit you, given all the circumstances. Of course, if you are subject to a court order of something like that (an abomination !) you may be stuck with attending meetings, anyway. Nevertheless, a mental "withdrawal" is possible, if that is what you need.

You have made some very valid observations about the program. I like what you say about replacing one addiction with another. To be fair, being a stepper is better than being a drunk, but as you know, one can be sober and not attend meetings. It's all about taking personal responsibility in the end, isn't it? AA certainly does not teach this - AA exists for itself, not the drunk.

I've been sober for 43 days and have attended approx. 12 AA meetings. When I first attended, I found the people very friendly, listened to a speaker for 30 minutes about his transition from sober child to alcoholic and back to AA sober guy. It was followed by small stories for the next 45 minutes about a chosen topic by the speaker, usually one of the steps (about half of them mention "the higher power" ). I was told by many in the meetings, the higher power could be anything, many just use the group itself as your higher power. But most of the members seem to use God and if questioned, oh, it just refers to higher power. Anyway, from my perspective, its a very religious group.

I've had a sponsor for a few days and am considering whether I would like to continue the program. My biggest problems are being forced to go to meetings without calling my sponsor with an excuse, being forced to call three drunks a day, to meet once a week to go thru the Big Book (capitalized so Bill doesn't strike me down), and just a general program forced upon me if I am to have a sponsor. I like the idea of a support group but if you show up, you more of less have to get a sponsor so by going you get the auto sign up on everything else. My sponsor said I would normally have to go to 90 mtgs in 90 days but I think he could read me and just required 3 per week to be my sponsor.

Anyway, as I attend more and more mtgs, I get the feeling that something odd exists in the whole AA thing. I googled AA cult tonight because that is the feeling I was getting and suprisingly I'm not the only one that gets that feeling. The strange thing is the length of membership of some of the members and how they apply the steps to every other aspect of their lives. Its the Holy 12 steps. And there is certainly a heirarchy among everyone and a pressure to keep newcomers coming. Its written right in the 12th step, summary....go find people who need help and bring them here.

Many will say working thru the steps, possibily over and over again, has changed there life for the best. They got jobs, hold their jobs longer, their wives come back with the children, to name a few. My take on that would be that you are a much better person after you cut the daily 750ml Jack Daniels bottle out of your daily diet. The 12 steps probably didn't have much to do with it in my opinion. You were working thru them at the time you quit drinking so obvioously many people would associate the steps with a better life especially when an entire group of people were reinforcing the idea.

The steps that seem to make alot of sense would be 1. admit you are powerless over alcohol and that your life has become unmanageable...this makes sense because if you find yourself at an AA mtg, obviously you drink entirely too much and its messing up your life. 2. write an inventory about yourself.....may help to write down whats going on in your life and speak to it with someone else. 3. make ammends...if alcohol caused you to do some things you might have not have done had you not been drinking, an honest appology to these people may make you feel better about yourself.

I said something to my sponsor when he said his higher power helps him stay sober, I asked him "do you think you're really giving yourself enough credit"?

Anyway, I don't really see any connection between the steps and having your life improve. Its the absense of alcohol that makes your life better. If you need a group of people to act as some friends because all of your others are at the bar, maybe good for you. You could also join some adult sports leagues to get the same effect though and have one alcoholic friend who you could call if you were thinking of drinking.

I might continue this guys program for a month or so just so I'm not prejudging but theres a definite cult feel and I certainly won't be sitting in a chair there for yrs and yrs. I'm trying to get rid of my addiction, not fill it in with another one.

A community has many different views. I have not been any more caustic and condescending than anyone else. I must have struck a chord somewhere with someone.

My response to those who say AA is a cult...
Sign your own court slip.
Take the issue up with the judge who told you attend AA meetings.
Maybe you can get the ACLU involved.
I can't tell you how many meetings I have been to where half the people in the hall have court slips that needed to be signed.
When I chaired meetings I would offer to sign the court slips BEFORE the meeting started.
To get those surly mugs out of there.
Just try to leave a buck or two for the coffee you drank:)
I am not Law Enforcement or Officer of the court.
Been to thousands of meetings.
Rarely do meetings these days.
Once in a blue moon.

The bottom line is this. If you are new to this cult programming run as far and as fast as you can. You will be sold a bill of goods. You will be damaged. If you keep coming back get outside help from a professional cult deprogrammer. Its already too late for a shrink. Hopefully aa will eventually consume itself into oblivion.

Dr. Dombeck put my posts up I havent said anything rude. Im tired of your pius attitude

Dr. Dombeck's Note: Any and all comments that appear to those of us who moderate comments here (there are a few and all comments are moderated prior to publication) reserve the right to censor material that we think is inappropriate for this forum. This may sound hard-line, and it is I suppose, but it works to keep things on a roughly even keel. The tone of community discourse affects people who visit this site so we keep the flaming (and spam, etc.) within limits to preserve a sense of safety.

"To those who claim to hold AA and its 12 steps and 12 traditions in such a revered position, what is your interpretation of traditions 10 and 12? And how is your acceptance and devotion to such priniples reflected in your behavior and comments here? Could it be like everything else in AA, act as irresponsibly as you want and use the excuse that "it was your disease talking?" "

AA members (and ex members) can discuss AA related topics without fear of breaking AA traditions.

Claire, Mike, how many people stay at AA for a year? What percentage would you say?

All we know for sure is that the retention rate is low. The triennial surveys from 20 years ago show that roughly 3/4 of all newcomers hightail it within the first year. To be fair, many might come back again after a hiatus.

My own experience after 18 years in the program is that very few stick around for more than a few years, sober or not. Our beloved leader, Agent Orange (that's for you, Tony), has done an interesting retention analysis based on coin sales for a region of the US (I think it was Texas) that he somehow got hold of. He also shows that retention rates drop very low after the first year.

I think that one thing going against AA is the high number of referrals (court, therapist) that have occurred over the past few decades. When I first got into the program in 1990 I did not see a lot of attendance cards. Now they are very common. Obviously, the more people being prodded to attend meetings, the more likely it is that they will leave. Common sense tells us that a voluntary member will likely stick around longer.

Mike : "Whoa...the kids who were buggered for years by priests were also "protected by law" in an abstract sense. "

But, as I've already suggested, if you feel the need you should get involved in the General service Conference and try to get a movement going to affect some changes.

I have no idea what the reaction would be, but it seems like bringing up concerns like that is timely. As you say, every other organization does it.

As crazy as I think you are on most issues, I actually agree with you on this. I think it's a very valid topic to discuss.

But, in the end, criminals will be liable to the law, not to AA. We don't have the ability to screen people or kick them out. It's a complicated issue. Greater awareness of it can only be a good thing though.

I am not really Here anymore. However, I do feel moved to comment on the following recent entry Here, with your response -

Dr. Dombeck's Note: Normally we'd censor a comment like this for its flamability, but I'm letting it through as an example of the type of content which should not be here. This place really ought to be for *comments*. Those of you who who want to have a dialog - especially one which is rancorous and flamy, please follow this link over to our Community/Forum in the addictions section, create an account if you don't have one, and be rancorous there. It's just a better place for this sort of back and forth backstabbing."

I agree that the relevant post was an unhelpful, from any viewpoint. However, I wonder whether it is entirely wise to invite flamers and trolls to prowl the Forum, as an alternative to posting Out Here ?

Specifically, I would invite you to consider the head to a new thread that has just appeared in the Forum, courtesy of our friend, Tony J -

Perhaps this may be considered helpful. I, for one, have withdrawn from contributing in the Forum, and from Here, due to the persistent activity of mischievous flamers and devious, clever trolls In There, and the apparent inability to deal with them as they deserve. However anybody else may misunderstand the meaning of some of my recent posts on the Forum, that is it. I suspect that I may not be alone ...

Dr. Dombeck's Note: I cannot argue with your logic, JR, but better there than here. There we have better more granular means of handling bad behavior. I don't intend to allow a full flame war happen in the community anymore than here, but I don't like the idea of shutting down dialog either. It is certainly draining, though. Regarding the tone of the new discussion on the community I will investigate and handle if it has not already been handled.

Okay, I've opened a thread on the community forum called "Anti-AA 'serenity haters club'".

All anti-AA's are invited to criticize and flame me or any other AA member free of charge.

To those who claim to hold AA and its 12 steps and 12 traditions in such a revered position, what is your interpretation of traditions 10 and 12? And how is your acceptance and devotion to such priniples reflected in your behavior and comments here? Could it be like everything else in AA, act as irresponsibly as you want and use the excuse that "it was your disease talking?" In this case, you are allowed to defy each and every principle as relentlessly and often as you wish because you have your "disease" to hide behind and blame it on? Actions speak louder than words - which apparentely is all that the 12 steps and traditions are to you - a bunch of random and meaningless words. Impressive stuff!!!

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

AA is about as transparent as an organization can get. AA members are protected by the law just like every other citizen is.

Whoa...the kids who were buggered for years by priests were also "protected by law" in an abstract sense. However the Catholic Church has now instituted specific policies to better screen priests/volunteers (background checks, for one) in order to protect kids. Common sense stuff, spurred on by lawsuits and subsequent payouts.

Why is AA exempt from these things? I mean, we have a priesthood in AA (the sponsors), we have ritual (the steps), we have a church (usually a basement somewhere), and we have a vulnerable congregation (the newcomers).

AA is anything but transparent when it comes to such policies. It glibly refers to the "autonomy of groups" or takes no position at all. Lazy and negligent best describes this stance.

"Just went to AA meeting and brought up medication as a topic. One gentelmen just went off his anti-depressants but doesnt have a job or a home. Seems like a good time to quit huh? lol Said god told him to"

Mark, I hope you shared that medication should be prescribed by a doctor and the patient should follow that doctor's instructions. That's exactly what were talking about here.

A mature, sober person in AA should pass the message on even if they can't help directly.

"Oral tradition was fine before Gutenberg gave us the printing press."

The 12 traditions are not passed on by 'oral tradition'.
You know the 12/12 book that you never read ? The tradtions are in the back.

"It's also official AA literature that 100 men and women were sober when the first edition of the BB went to press (it was 40 - 60, and many relapsed thereafter)."

When you see a nice clean round number like '100', that should be a tip that it's not meant to be a statistic. You have had English Lit classes, haven't you ?

" It's also official literature that Bill W. died from complications due to a fall from a roof, when in fact it was his tobacco habit (nicotine isn't a drug, is it?)."

Now that's a new one. Are you claiming that Bill climbed up on the roof with his oxygen tank and fell off ?
Everyone knew he had emphysema. He was under a doctor's care for it and he needed oxygen to breath.

Yes, nicotine is a drug. It's not a mood altering drug and AA has 'no opinion on outside issues'. But you can keep repeating the fact that nicotine is a drug if think it makes your argument seem more impressive.

" It's also official literature that falsely associates Herbert Spencer with the "contempt prior to investigation quote". "

Perhaps the association is false. If you google the quote you will find many sites that attribute it to Spencer.

"Now where's the pamphlet on screening of sponsors to ensure they are not wolves in sheep's clothing?"

There is no scientific evidence that any method of addiction recovery works.

But you went to AA and should have first hand knowledge of how it worked for 'you'.
Either it worked for you or you didn't need it and you went for 18 years anyway.

"AA needs similar documents that transparently show how the physical and mental safety of newcomers (especially the young) will be ensured. Other organizations have such policies in place. Why should AA be exemt?
"
AA is about as transparent as an organization can get. AA members are protected by the law just like every other citizen is. But you are free to get active and bring up your concerns. You might start a trend, who knows ? If you're going to sit home and wait for AA to do what you want, good luck with that.

Claire, Mike, how many people stay at AA for a year? What percentage would you say?

"In the case of sponsors giving medical advice, it's official AA literature in the form of the pamphlet I linked to."

It's also official AA literature that 100 men and women were sober when the first edition of the BB went to press (it was 40 - 60, and many relapsed thereafter). It's also official literature that Bill W. died from complications due to a fall from a roof, when in fact it was his tobacco habit (nicotine isn't a drug, is it?). It's also official literature that falsely associates Herbert Spencer with the "contempt prior to investigation quote". Now to be fair, I read the Rx pamphlet and it makes sense to me. Now where's the pamplet on screening of sponsors to ensure they are not wolves in sheep's clothing? Where's the pamphlet that shows scientific proof that AA actually works?

"Also the 12 traditions and general wisdom passed down via sharing. I already went over all this Mike."

Oral tradition was fine before Gutenberg gave us the printing press. Now we have printed media and the Internet. The constitution is written, it's a policy, it has been expanded on over the centuries. AA needs similar documents that transparently show how the physical and mental safety of newcomers (especially the young) will be ensured. Other organizations have such policies in place. Why should AA be exemt?

There is a lot of talk on this board, and in the rooms of modern-day AA about sponsorship, but, for the record, the big book actually talks very little about it. Why today’s AA has gone from zero to 60 on sponsorship, and it’s importance, is a mystery to me. I personally view it as my least favorite tool. In 15 years, I have never had a sponsor nor ever sponsored anyone. Because I think it’s stupid. I don’t abide to any one piece of advice – why would I listen to a single drunk?

It grew out of the Cleavland group in 1939/40. (after the BB was written...there for it isn't in the BB) ;)

Each prospect was assigned an older A.A., who visited him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on A.A. principles, and conducted him to his first meeting. (AA Comes of Age, page 20)

Appearently it worked so it became the norm. In my groups it's routine to ask a person to sponsor you through the steps. Especially helping with 4-9. Many people come around for a long time with no sponsor. That doesn't seem to work as well, but for some it's good enough. We never 'assign' sponsors. The new guy has to ask someone. Back it the day AA recruited more aggresivley than we seem to.

My statements can seem cold at times, that doesnt mean I dont have compassion while I see the absurdities in the rooms of AA

The important thing to realize when going to AA is that there are no mental health professionals running the meetings. With that being said you count on the Big book quoters and some pop psychology being shared. Just what you need when you have a serious "disease" thats "progressive and fatal." So, if alcoholism is progessive and fatal would you send your kid to a place where no mental health professionals are in charge and is loaded with socio's and mentally ill people for recovery? Not if you love them.

Mike : "How are you qualified to "blast" anyone? What are your credentials in terms of psychology, theology, general medicine?"

This is coming from a guy who just blasted people in AA for 'drinking coffee at night'.

Why don't you give us your credentials first. You seem to have alot to say about the way AA is run.

List your credendials to comment on AA in terms of psychology, theology and general medicine.

"What standards do you use for credibility? Common sense, gut feeling, mores and customs, personal tastes? Are you trained to spot credibility?"

In the case of sponsors giving medical advice, it's official AA literature in the form of the pamphlet I linked to.

Also the 12 traditions and general wisdom passed down via sharing. I already went over all this Mike.

"Why not just get yourself a pair of tights and a Batmobile and start helping out the cops in your spare time? I'm sure they would appreciate it - NOT.
"

I am helping the cops in my spare time. I'm helping drunks (who cops deal with) get sober, stay sober and live a better life.

I'll leave the tights and cape for the anti-AA's. They're busy saving the world from AA while AA is busy saving drunks.

The true power of AA for me has always been service, home group and the group-collective (shares from the floor).

So for those, here, who profess very little about AA with their shallow views (you know who you are), and yet still hate on sponsorship, I say, we may have finally found something in which we agree.

Just went to AA meeting and brought up medication as a topic. One gentelmen just went off his anti-depressants but doesnt have a job or a home. Seems like a good time to quit huh? lol Said god told him to

"I can tell you, I would pull individuals aside and protect them from bad sponsors (have done it a few times) and I would blast a sponsor like that from the floor every time he opened his mouth or I got wind of him doing something like that. "

How are you qualified to "blast" anyone? What are your credentials in terms of psychology, theology, general medicine?

"I would, in short, do my best to ruin his credibility. If the transgression was on a group level I would do the same thing to that group. I've seen groups and whole clubs fold because they lost credibility and the 'old timers' wouldn't participate in meetings. "

What standards do you use for credibility? Common sense, gut feeling, mores and customs, personal tastes? Are you trained to spot credibility?

Why not just get yourself a pair of tights and a Batmobile and start helping out the cops in your spare time? I'm sure they would appreciate it - NOT.

"I have had surgery twice and have been prescribed pain meds. I use them only as long as I have pain. I would not tell a sponsoree to avoid prescribed pain meds. I take a prescription anti-depressant every night at bedtime. I was ten years sober before I learned my emotional roller coaster rides were abnormal. It was a fellow AA that suggested I see a doctor when my depression was sever enough I stopped sleeping. There's a lot of AA bashing on the internet. I don't understand it."

Duane I identify with your story. It seems like that's the normal AA stance on prescription drugs. My sponsor also advised me to look into anti-depressants. I do know of a few people who choose not to take pain pills but I don't know of anyone making that a requirement of sobriety. As far as telling a person not to take psych meds, that's just retarded. I don't doubt it has happened because AA does have it's share of crazies, but it would take two sickos to pull that off. One to suggest it and the other to follow blindly.

It seems to me that most of the anti-AA's spend more time on the internet (specifically the orange papers site-give that a browse when you need a laugh) then they do at meetings.

I suppose it is only through the stories of we who have been on the inside that others who read this forum might be forewarned about AA.

Yes we can argues stats....as Tony rightly notes, the one year 95% attrition rate based on the trennials is wrong...it is in fact 74% (still pretty bad). And yes, Dick B. has proven that Bill W. either lied or was a really bad counter when he claimed over 100 people had recovered when the BB was published (more like 40 - 60, ouch).

But in the end, it is likely the personal accounts of insiders which give the best witness to the perils that lie beneath the surface of cult-lite. And no, Tony, some people are not in a position to simply find a better meeting/sponsor after the damage has already been done. I can just see people telling the young women who were raped by the boys in the Midtown group that "...it's a spiritual axiom when someone hurts us...".

Again. why is AA not held to the same standards as other organizations such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts? (hint: a smart lawyer has not caught on yet).

Claire : "Over my nine years of AA membership, I witnessed many instances of individuals being advised or ordered not to take medication.

With respect to addictive medications, such as pain killers (OxyContin, Percocet, etc.) and tranquilizers (Valium, Ativan) the advice was typically never to take these medications at all, under any circumstances, because the risk of relapse was too high. "

I got sober in NJ and that is not normal at all around here. The normal advice about pain medication is to 'take as prescribed'.

And just as important, what did you do about the situation? As a member with 9 years in the program why didn't you understand the correct position a sponsor should have on prescription medication use and make the group aware, or if you did why did they not listen to you ?

I can tell you, I would pull individuals aside and protect them from bad sponsors (have done it a few times) and I would blast a sponsor like that from the floor every time he opened his mouth or I got wind of him doing something like that.

I would, in short, do my best to ruin his credibility. If the transgression was on a group level I would do the same thing to that group. I've seen groups and whole clubs fold because they lost credibility and the 'old timers' wouldn't participate in meetings.

As a former med-professional and recovered member of AA, I’ll conclude, “a drug, is a drug, is a drug.”

Alcoholism and drug addiction are one in the same: probably organic in nature. Meaning, at the cellular level, an addicted person alters his/her neurotransmitters to the point of no return (lock & key theory). Afterwards, unless a psychic change occurs (Carl Jung, Buddha), former pleasure centers in the brain are no longer stimulated naturally, but only via a drug of choice, a close second (prescription med), or a combination of the two.

If a seek lands in AA on psychotropic meds, or picks them up after starting the program, until they let go of them absolutely, recovery is static. The seek looks to the drug as a crutch rather than letting the process of reprogram the mind, body, and spirit via AA occur (psychic change).

The collective conscience of AA suggesting any drug will keep a seek in the pit of addiction is NOT practicing medicine without a license. Only a doctor “prescribes” – the rest is freewill via suggestions/experiences on the part of individuals who have solved the drink/drug problem where doctors (pushers) have not solved any such problem.

AA is based on the notion that the body is a temple for the spirit. A healthy body yields a healthy spirit. So is yoga, religion, voodoo, marathon running, and the rest.

If an AA seek is still smoking, eating junk food, not sleeping, not exercising, not meditating, not listening to the voice of reason (AA), recovery is also static. Piling pharmaceuticals on top of the already insurmountable physical hurdles a seek must jump is exactly that – piling on.

The people who truly recover from addiction are the ones that let go of an old way of life – and accept a new one as the only way out of the suffering. They are the winners.

The seek who gets “stuck” in AA (or in an insane asylum); who hasn’t made the connection between their physiology and their addiction; they smoke, eat crap, don’t exercise, visit doctors for goodies; they are the losers.

Only in the case where an individual will probably kill themselves before a psychic change can occur is a drug acceptable. Methadone, for example. Keep the seek alive – point them at AA. Then there is hope.

See, Dr. D these people in AA think they are in direct contact with a power greater than themselves. Armed with these special powers they think they have been given the ability to diagnose, etc. Im not exaggerating here. One male sponsor I know prides himself on just taking aspirin no matter what the malady is or isnt. He usually sponsors uneducated guys or no so intelligent ones. But just because these people arent so bright doesnt mean they shouldnt have a right to good recovery. Thats why SPONSORS SHOULD BE REGULATED. Any stupid moron can sponsor just because he didnt drink or the sponsor happens be into stock cars and and thats why the sponsee asked him to sponsor him. I know one married guy who gos to church and screws numerous women in AA and then gos into meetings and talks extensively about God, its hilarious and pathetic at the same time how jaded these people can get

Over my nine years of AA membership, I witnessed many instances of individuals being advised or ordered not to take medication.

Indeed, there is no doubt that there IS a risk of becoming addicted to addictive medications, so a cautionary tone regarding such medications is certainly appropriate. The problem is with the black and white prohibition: the notion that such medications are NEVER appropriate, under ANY circumstances, and that AA members who have no medical training are in a better position to make this judgment than the individual sufferer in conjunction with his or her doctor.

I should note that I am aware of instances in which the prohibition against taking pain meds led to a relapse on alcohol.

With respect to psychiatric medications....here, prohibitions against taking these meds are not universal. I recently read a study which found that approximately 12% of AA members do not "believe in" psych meds and would order their sponsees to stop taking them. I think this percentage is fairly accurate. Although perhaps 12% doesn't seem alarming, it means that a newcomer with a mental illness has a better than a 1 in 10 chance of winding up with such a person as his or her sponsor. Given that approximately half of AA members have some form of co-occurring mental illness (problems ranging from depression to schizophrenia) this is a real problem.

I have written about this before, but the experience of one young woman I knew in AA was instrumental in my decision to leave the program. This young woman had been abstinent from alcohol for 7 years. She was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and was prescribed medications by her treating psychiatrist. Her sponsor insisted that the diagnosis was wrong, that the sponsee was simply not spiritually fit, and ordered the sponsee to stop taking the meds. The sponsee followed this directive (another problem: people following their sponsor's advice, no matter how bad it is). Predictably, the young woman's now-untreated bi-polar disorder soon returned in full swing, and she relapsed. I was among the group of women who took her to the hospital following her relapse (she was extremely ill and required hospitalization for several days) and following the experience determined to talk to the sponsor who had given this advice. The astonishing thing about this conversation was the ignorance displayed by the sponsor. Even after her sponsee had relapsed and ended up in the hospital due to her horrific advice, the woman was unmoved, insisting that the problem was not bi-polar disorder but her sponsee's inability to be "rigorously honest."

This was not the sole reason for my decision to leave the program. There were other factors, including the presence of unchecked sexual predators in the program and my increasing awareness of large, abusive factions growing up in the fellowship (the Pacific Group, the Midtown Group) and nothing being done to stop it. But it was one reason I came to the conclusion that I could no longer be affiliated with a group that claims to do so much good....but which in fact does so much harm.

Dr. D there are certain people within the rooms of AA who believe the 12 steps will cure disease. I dont know why you are surprised? If the 12 steps cure alcoholism why should you be surprised that many members think it will cure other maladies such as depression, bi-polar, personality disorders etc.? See, the thinking is that if the 12 steps will cure what AA calls defects of character,(whatever the hell that is ) is cures psychological disorders of all sorts. ITs what happens when you have Sponsors who are given powers to advise that have no training or education to do so. Some sponsors tell people to take their medication and follow doctors instructions. So you have good advice and bad advice. I personally witnessed one sponsor who was well thought of tell their sponsee to go home and pray about their medication issures, scary huh? AA needs some changes to insure safety to vulnerable people who might not be educated enough or bright enough to realize you do what a DOCTOR TELLS YOU NOT SOMEONE ARMED WITH A BIG BOOK AND NO EDUCATION OR COMMMON SENSE. So, in conclusion some advise in AA is good and some is very very dangerous.

I have been clean and sober now for over a year. I attend AA meetings as often as I can. I have a home group and a sponsor.

I definately have seen how some AA members/sponsors have potentially harmed another. I too suffer with depression and anxiety disorders for which I take Rx medication. I cannot stop taking this medication because it is medically necessary to maintain my neurotransmitter balance.

I have talked to people who's sponsor had convinced them that God would heal their mental illness and they don't need their pills. Inevitably, they wound up drunk/on more harmful and illegal drugs/harming themselves, etc. If they return, they are in a horribly tragic state. If not, they commit suicide.

I would never, ever tell someone to stop a medically necessary Rx. I urge others not to do so. God gave Doctors, Therapists, Nurses, and other medical/social service personnel the gift and blessing to help others. Don't deprive people of it when they most need it because of lack of understanding.

You know, it's very interesting that I've never heard a person share from the podium that they were on medication and their sponsor told them to stop taking it. (ie. I've never heard it first hand)

I have heard, hundreds of times, that it has happened to some third party(someone, someone knows) and that sponsors are not doctors etc. Normally this is stated in a condescending way towards the (nameless) sponsors who do such terrible things. The story in the AA pamphlet is the only time I've heard it expressed 'frist hand'.

I suspect that the story has been incorporated into the general 'AA wisdom' and gets passed around in order to keep everone on track. In short the 'AA message' is that sponsors are not doctors and should not give medical advice.

In fact, I've given that message myself several times. Somehow I know that AA sponsors shouldn't act as doctors and have, at times given bad advice. I don't know this 'first hand' but from general meeting talk. So if the topic of medication comes up I know what to suggest. It's the accumulated wisdom of the fellowhip that I've picked up over the years. Since it's obviously good advice, I pass it on when I think it will help.

I have a feeling the anti-AA's, in their zeal to criticize AA, have heard the same third party stories and are basing their attacks on that.

I'd like to hear from someone who was given medical advice by a sponsor. Particularly medical advice that contradicted a doctor.

I've been to a lot of meetings in a lot of places over the last 28 years. What we in AA do is pass on what we have experienced, what our strengths are, and what our hopes are. We relate in general ways what our lives used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. I have had surgery twice and have been prescribed pain meds. I use them only as long as I have pain. I would not tell a sponsoree to avoid prescribed pain meds. I take a prescription anti-depressant every night at bedtime. I was ten years sober before I learned my emotional roller coaster rides were abnormal. It was a fellow AA that suggested I see a doctor when my depression was sever enough I stopped sleeping. There's a lot of AA bashing on the internet. I don't understand it. During the seven and a half years between my first meeting and my last drink I never once questioned AA's path to recovery. I merely thought my case was different. Once I came to believe I was LIKE those folks in the meetings instead of DIFFERENT from them I haven't had to use drugs or alcohol since. If some genius in medical research came up with a pill today that when used daily would allow me to drink a beer or two after work without the awful results I have experienced in the past I would not use it. My disease still IS even though I have not used for nearly 20 years. It is in the way I think and AA helps me with that. The people in AA gently demonstrated to me through their actions that God, however I might choose to understand God, not only could help me with life's problems but would. I didn't even have to believe in this GOD...only believe that my way didn't work...and pray...even if I didn't believe in prayer. So I prayed...the faith came later. I had had faith in many other things that had let me down. God and AA have never failed me. All I had to do was ask.

There is, clearly, no end to it. No one is going to 'win' the 'argument', not even by exhaustion.

The funny thing is this: the great majority of people who attend AA leave AA. And, go about their business. No one knows why they leave and no one knows what happens to them. There is no reason for anyone to get an answer to either question. This is not a trivial point. It is the point.

I know of a local guru who claims people have commited suicide because they failed to do a thorough 6th and 7th step. Now how's that for twisted thinking and backdoor medical advice? THIS STUFF IS REAL.

As I have said before, unless AA takes it upon itself to create policies to train, certify, and track would-be sponsors, they are complicit in the harm that befalls the vulnerable in the halls. The same goes for practitioners who refer people there.

The message I've always heard is that you can take any medication as prescribed by a doctor and not 'relapse'.

While I've heard of people advising sponsees to stop taking medication I've also heard old timers rail against that sort of thing at meetings.

While it is a favorite topic of the anti-AA it isn't the norm and AA's themselves are aware of the problem and atttempt to address it.

(Trust me, if the anti-AA's can figure something out, it's got to be right in front of everyone's nose. They aren't 'deep thinkers')

I, too am very interested in AA members advising people not to take their medication.

I made my first meeting almost 28 years ago, took my last drink over 19 years ago. Cult? Nah. DOn't know what these guys got against an organization that does so much for so many. Do all Methodists live wonderful lives? How about the Catholics? Probably not. Neither do we. BUT...my life is so much better now than it was before I learned what my problems truly were. Plugging the jug was merely the first step in this journey. The ONLY problem I can see with AA is that it only works for those who want this way of life, not for all who need it. It is all about free will. Cult? Nah. A way of life I wouldn't trade for anything.

You haven't defended your first proposition and now you're moving on to another.

Tell us why you think that AA common wisdom in the area of suggesting members attend meetings on an ongoing basis is a cult like characteristic when other behavior modification groups such as weight watchers do the same thing. Is WW a cult in your opinion ?

Also, explain to us why senior AA members passing on the message that pain medications are dangerous and must be considered a possible cause of relapse is a 'fear induction technique' of the kind used by cults, even though the danger of such relapse is very real.

Dr. Dombeck's Note: I would like to see more discussion of this point about AA members advising other members to disregard doctor's prescription recommendations. There are legitimate causes for concern or at least caution when a physician prescribes something like valium or a pain medication to someone struggling with addiction. These medications are addictive if misused, and they are easy to misuse. However, this being true does not mean that addicted people should never use these medications as prescribed by a doctor. In some cases, the risks of not using them will outweight the dangers of using them. The issue gets even thornier (IMHO) when AA members question whether other members should be taking psychiatric medications. In such cases, the advise to not take the medication is intended to be helpful, but it is actually misguided and may result in harm. In general, non-medical people should not be providing medical advice to others, even if their intention is to be helpful. I do recognize that some doctors prescribe carelessly and without proper regard to the full context of their patient's lives, but just the same, two wrongs do not make a right.

Mike : "I think you and Tony are doing more to advance the AA/cult link than I or others on this forum are capable of. "

Your premise is that Marcus and I exhibit 'cult like behavior' and we are members of AA, therefore AA must be a cult.

Even were your premise correct (you can ask Dr D for his professional opinion if you like), it does nothing to prove your claim that AA is a cult.

Dr. Dombeck's Note: My professional opinion is that the question of whether AA is a cult or not is not going to be decided here. Neither side would accept a verdict they didn't like. Meaning - the issue is so polarized that resolution through conventional means seems impossible.

Posted Oct 30 under the thread: "What behaviors got in the way of your spiritual growth?":

I really wasn't humble enough at the beginning to ask HP's help with EVERYTHING. I thought that I was supposed to do my best and then ask for help when i got into trouble. Well, that didn't work out very well. My ego and pride had me lying about my mistakes. My fear had me insisting that you should do it my way or something bad would happen. Today, coming up on 20 yrs sober, I know that on my own, I will make the most frustrating and embarrassing messes in my life. Then I will have to make amends for hurting or whatever my alcoholic mind cooked up as "the best thing to do" So I'm just better off if I say all the step prayers every day and ask for guidance like it says in the book often during the day. Everybody around me is better off if I do that too.

So a guy who hasn't had a drink in almost 20 years is a total, dysfunctional mess who still has an "alcoholic mind" after all those years of AA meetings and working the steps. He has no self-efficacy: he can't make a move on his own.

Lest someone think this sort of thing is rare in AA, my experience was that I heard this notion expressed at least once in every meeting (I went to over 1,000) I ever attended.

I guess my 18 years in AA took place in an alternate universe. I saw most of the cult traits you listed repeated many times throughout my years in AA. Please keep posting though. I think you and Tony are doing more to advance the AA/cult link than I or others on this forum are capable of.

1. You wear a uniform. 2. You swearto enforce a rigid set of rules. 3. You have a ritual, called police procedure. 4. You have to treal the public according to a set routine, called "miranda".

15 reasons why AA is NOT a cult – but the medical profession [MP] is: - MARCUS - Oct 31st 2009

1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

AA: Most participants poke fun at Bill & Bob (founding fathers). AA’s belief system is based on suggestions, not law. Leaders are but trusted servants.

MP: If you question the authority of your superiors in a hospital you’re fired. If you repudiate DSM protocol, and such, you get sued, blacklisted, lose your license, and/or get thrown in jail.

AA: rather than discouraged, questioning and doubting AA is encouraged. Speak your mind.

MP: The idea of the medical profession still practicing a form of art (medical arts) is long gone. Follow protocol or you’re out of here. Don’t ask questions – just do your job.

3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

AA: leaders are but trusted servants. They do NOT govern. Most business meeting are a 15 minute joke. You can say whatever you want in AA and/or about AA and nobody cares. Take what need and leave the rest. Come once per year or 4 times per day. Up to you.

MP: billions of industry dollars are spent to promote the cause. Misleading drug campaigns run round the clock on radio, TV, and the Internet. As an employee of the industry you are schooled, then paid well to keep your mouth shut.

4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

AA: has no opinion on outside issues, “don’t drink, go to meetings, and the rest will take care of itself.”

MP: You wear a uniform. You train in great detail, some times as much as 12 years in college, on how to think, act, and feel in every aspect of your life; your mind, body and soul are controlled by lobbyists. Your opinion is their opinion. Freethinking is thrown to the wind. All your time is devoted to the group.

5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

AA: leaders are but trusted servants. An AA meeting is nothing more than a collection of testimonials for whom the program has worked.

MP: The medical profession -- and the hospital you work at -- claim all of the above for itself. They are the ultimate authority on all things “health.” Everyone else is thrown in jail for practicing “medicine” without a license.

6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

MP: the US medical industry claims ultimate authority and righteousness on all things regarding personal health. To the MP, “if an alternative view doesn’t agree with our logic, then they are preaching lies and/or dangerous philosophy,” and it is all punishable by law.

7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

AA: all “leaders” are trusted servants elected by, of, and for the people via democratic process (with term limits).

MP: The medical profession is not only not accountable to any authorities – they positioned themselves to be the only legitimate authority on your health.

8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

AA: has no opinion on outside issues. Members, led by other members, participate in a simple program of recovery that has proven itself to work for more than 70 years.

MP: promoting hard-on pills (viagra), and such, on primetime TV -- when kids are watching -- is reprehensible and unethical. A pill for everything. But you have to keep that money machine rolling!

9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

AA: has a very loss leadership of trusted servants. All decisions evolve via group conscience.

MP: claims ultimate authority on all things regarding a persons health; to it’s members it says, “if you DO NOT prescribe this pill, or push a seek towards that specialist, YOU ARE FIRED.” Everything is protocol. Thinking ‘outside the box’ is illegal.

10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

AA: suggests that you “stick with the winners.” The only goal is to help a member stay away from the first drink/drug.

MP: 12-hour workdays, holidays, weekends. On your time off, “advance training” to get more “degrees.” Work-a-holism. Total submersion.

AA: does NOT recruit. Operates on a policy of attraction rather than promotion. One alcoholic / addict helping another.

MP: Spends billions recruiting employees on college campuses. Spends even more billions to educate it’s members regarding it’s long list of products aimed at a vulnerable the public.

AA: is self supporting through its own contributions declining outside contributions.

MP: the US healthcare lobby is concerned exclusively with making money. “Health” is not even a close second. Most MP companies are publicly traded, their leadership is composed of some of the highest paid individuals in America, drug companies make more money in one day than AA has generated in it’s entire 70 year history.

13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

AA: has no rules regarding time whatsoever. It has mere suggestions such as, “a meeting a day for 90 days,” and such.

MP: When you join the medical profession, you are expected to devote your entire life to your “career” (making money).

14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

MP: members are indoctrinate via extensive internships, degrees, and live-in residencies. Members devote their entire lives to becoming and maintaining their membership.

15. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

AA: nearly all AA members recover (graduate) after a certain period of time. Many stay to show the newcomer that it works.

MP: after sending your entire life in school, in a hospital wearing a funny white uniform, in a “research” laboratory, pushing your finger up people’s anuses (literally), making truckloads of cash and thinking you have all the answers to the worlds health problems, where else are you gonna fit in? You’re in it for life. Who else is going to put up with your crazy self?

You most not forget than even it AA is not a cult, at best it is a horrific organization, full of never corrected ideas and prejudices from long ago.

I like him too. I have been using a CBT workbook for the past few weeks and it has helped me with anxiety. What do you know...it's not my character defects after all.

I always gravitated to pg 570 of the Big Book--Herbert Spencer's famous quote re: "Contempt before Investigation....".

Well I investigated,..for 8 plus years before I stopped going to meetings (...OMG,..I"M STILL SOBER !??--how can that be ??)

I kept always coming back to "Can't " v. "Won't" in meetings. Why ? Isuppose it was because, many former Lounge Lizards, simply Won't...but instead say they can't....(it's an easier cop-out--it's like saying 1/2 is as good as whole ) So their behaviors go on unabated....and their behaviors escalate, until they get their attention fix/ manipulation of others/ compulsive lechery / "Come here--go away" / etc.

That (to me) is why AA is a cult--After the Bootcamp of detox/Treatment/ regular meeting attendee---you don't have to do anything !! You can be as sick and cruel as Ted Bundy,.... but if you hit meetings--no one will ever say "Boo"...

I know a former Scientologist in L.A. He says it's basically the same set-up---conform, pay your dues, humble and mumble the Mantra for awhile--then, you are free to start mind-f*cking others.

Back to whether AA is a cult. Yes, it is. Not the worst by far, but a cult (lite) nevertheless. Why do people stay with it? Well in my experience these are the main reasons:

- It provides an ersatz social group. Not a bad thing in the beginning, but after a decade or so it usually means that someone has not integrated socially with the outside world."

AA is a real social group. How could it be anything else? Is the word 'ersatz' being used by you to invalidate certain people who you feel superior too ?

And long term meeting attendance does not indicate isolation from the outside world in any way. Again, why do you make false generalizations ?

"- A chance to gain self-esteem. This is accomplished via years of sobriety. We all know this. Guru status by the numbers."

Self esteem is normally improved by sobriety and learning how to cope with life in a constructive and satisfying way. A person who attaches his self esteem to his years of sobriety probably suffers from ...... low self esteem.

"- A chance to be heard. A captive audience exists in the halls. We get to air our problems, philosophy, and neurosis for all to hear. We just love those grunts and nods of agreement, don't we?"

"- A chance to have power. Take the cotton out of your ears and put in your mouth, ya pigeon!"

Again, you choose to frame events in the negative. Some do have power issues, but most AA's who stick around see chances to be helpful to a person who is struggling as they once were.

"- A chance to drink coffee at night. Caffeine's not a drug, is it? How about nicotine?"

I like to drink coffee at night and if I don't go to a meeting I get some from the 7-11 or even brew a pot at home (I have a cool French press btw).

Don't tell the AA's though. They think you have to go to a meeting to drink coffee. (it's part of the cult indoctrination you know)

" A chance to escape the family. My G*d, woman, read that chapter to wives again!~"

Right Mike. Much better to spend all your time at the bar than an hour a night at an AA meeting.

My wife has never once complained that I go to AA on a regular basis, in fact if I miss a few days she'll ask me when I'm going. Now, I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree but I'm pretty sure she's happy with my meeting attendance.

The question is, why do you obsessively try to find fault with something that doesn't have to be a part of your life ? Just walk away from it. Your just torturing yourself right now. Find a better support group or none at all and get on with your life.

You talk about people not integrating with the outside world and here you are spending all this time worrying about an organization that you have no obligation towards.

The meaning behind your previous post regarding the Grapevine was clear. Anyone with a 4th grade reading level would have understood your point. The troller hit back in his usual fashion - when confronted with facts he goes off the deep end. Typical bully tactic to get the thread off topic.

I'm glad you are posting more frequently here. Don't let that guy bother you. In fact, I'm glad he keeps posting. It strengthens our arguments about AA's cultish underpinnings.

Claire, you say "it is important to note the risk of relapse after five years of continuous abstinence is quite low".

We need a citation for that. The numbers regarding recovery are not very well known and you have given us bad information in the past. (the 5% triennial survey myth)

The obvious flaw in your logic is that the scenario you offered as a 'fear induction technique' was merely a statement of fact conveyed in the folksy style that is common in AA. (Point b is wrong therefore your conclusion is wrong)

b. AA's primary purpose is to 'stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety'.

c. Therefore talk of the dangers of pain medications is prudent (ie not fear inducing for the purpose of retaining members) .

The message that alcoholics are better off attending meetings on a regular basis is also, not a cult feature but a mere fact.

It's common for people to loose weight by joining weight watchers and sticking with the program. It is almost just as common for people to put the weight back on when they stop attending weight watchers meetings.

Newcomers are told to make as many meetings as possible because that will increase their chances for success. Most old timers don't go to mettings every day. Remember that when AA's speak they aren't talking in terms of 'doctrine', they are talking in an indirect way that is intended to pass on a certian wisdom and not absolutes and cold hard facts. (ie. folksy)

You are arguing that because AA recognizes certain objective facts that it is a cult. This implies that you don't like certain truths and are resisting them. It does not reflect on AA at all.

The fact is that even if no one here questioned AA, the lack of quality, the prejudiced statements, the contridictions and the many other problems are a part of the AA Foundations.

Focusing on the movtives of those you debate does not make AA into a better program.

My previous post regarding fear induction in AA has been mischaracterized. My point was not that it is good to become addicted to Oxycontin, or that people don't relapse after years of abstinence (although it is important to note the risk of relapse after five years of continuous abstinence is quite low).

My point was that the writer of that AA grapevine forum post I quoted was setting forth a common AA theme: the notion that to leave the group--no matter how long one has been abstinent--is to invite calamity. This an example of the sort of fear induction that goes on in AA. Since fear induction is often used to keep people from leaving cults, this is an example of an aspect of AA which leads me to believe that AA is a cult.

“…came to see it [AA] more and more as a dangerous…organization that enables sociopaths and neurotics of all stripes to ply their trade.” --mike

When I first came to AA I was one of them, sociopathic and neurotic. And now I’m neither; but I’m surrounded by newcomers who are both – and then some.

One of the reasons I’m on the fence about stepping away from AA for a while is this very point. I got well, and my taste for people changed to being comfortable around wellness -- rather than being comfortable around dereliction. Hence, personal growth.

But for the newcomer – not so. The new-be benefits from the “street” feel of AA. It’s not to far from where they fell – which is the essence of identification. And it is the essence of how AA works.

Someone who was working the city streets to buy drugs, and such, has no problem at all dealing with a group where people use to do those things – and now they don’t. They are safer with us that without us.

There are seeks [homeless] in the Manhattan rooms who only come for the cookies, coffee, to use the bathroom, and/or to panhandle for a few bucks (annoying). And there are “oldtimers” who stay to meet the perfect girlfriend or boyfriend, or to have a fling (more annoying). As far as AA “enabling” the madness. No. AA tolerates it because, as a group it realizes the rooms can absorb it. And that everyone, no matter how insane, has a chance to get well.

Like I said, it’s irrelevant. If someone attends a meeting, and has a dollar to put in the basket, great. If not – no problem. At the group level, that money pays for the group to keep the lights on. After all group expenses are paid, the rest – a small piece -- gets pasted up to Intergroup. Most groups don’t pass up anything.

If your question is, are people stealing money? The answer is mixed. I was involved with a group who I knew full well the treasurer was skimming from the kitty. I knew it because I was the treasurer before her, and I knew the numbers regarding the group – and hers didn’t add up. But I still put a dollar in the basket (service).

If your question is, is AA making truckloads of cash? Let me put it to you this way: in this last financial mess, Goldman Saks, with the assistance of Henry Paulson (treasury secretary) and George Bush almost single handedly bankrupted a nation. Things like Paulson being on the phone with Lloyd Blankfein (current Goldman Saks CEO) the morning TARP was about to be announced, bans on short selling Goldman’s stock, and other stuff. What these folks did was criminal. You or I would be in jail for it. And JP Morgan Chase went along for the ride. So did Wells Fargo and a few other banks. They (paulson, bush, goldman) redirected trillions of tax dollars to save their own assess; letting a slew of competitors rot (lehman bros, bear stearns, others).

And if we look at the $2.7 trillion spent on healthcare in this nation, I’d conclude that if the higher up’s at AA make a few dollars selling books – good for them. It’s trivial. Infact, even it AA world services fell off the face of the earth, AA, at the group level, would continue unaffected.

It’s pointless to argue that AA is a fat cat (except if you are a competitor).

What the heck does that mean? I get the impression that Marcus is trying to show that criticism of AA has financial roots. This is a red herring.

Back to whether AA is a cult. Yes, it is. Not the worst by far, but a cult (lite) nevertheless. Why do people stay with it? Well in my experience these are the main reasons:

- It provides an ersatz social group. Not a bad thing in the beginning, but after a decade or so it usually means that someone has not integrated socially with the outside world.

- A chance to gain self-esteem. This is accomplished via years of sobriety. We all know this. Guru status by the numbers.

- A chance to be heard. A captive audience exists in the halls. We get to air our problems, philosophy, and neurosis for all to hear. We just love those grunts and nods of agreement, don't we?

- A chance to have power. Take the cotton out of your ears and put in your mouth, ya pigeon!

- A chance to drink coffee at night. Caffeine's not a drug, is it? How about nicotine?

- A chance to escape the family. My G*d, woman, read that chapter to wives again!~

I hear this often; "they relapsed because they quit going to meetings". Ya OK! So I guess you could say he didn't win the wrestling championships because he quit going to practice, she didn't graduate because she stopped going to school ect. AA's love to share deep insight into the obvious. Fact is people who KEEP going to meetings also relapse. Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholics......simple. There is no reason, thats why it is what it is --a phenomenon. Maybe A REAL ALCHOLIC is in the beginning stages of relapse the momment he stops drinking. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I have stopped drinking for two years now. Do I still qualify? Now I have a desire to not start drinking. I really love sobriety today.

My last post is incomplete and I will address that soon. I think Ive zeroed in on what bothers me in the recovery industry and its complex.

Anybody who has problems with alternative forms of recovery has been indoctrinated. This mentality that AA is the "only way" is scary and cult like. If someone comes up with a way other than AA and it makes money so what? The goal is recovery and it doesnt matter how one gets there. It doesnt matter to me if someone makes a profit off helping someone recover. AA has helped some folks so what? so has joining a church or taking up biking or meditation etc. Why is AA so threatned by alternative forms of recovery? Ill answer that for you. ....Money they would receive. Otherwise why would you give a damn? Its almost always about the money. Sorry, just the cold hard facts of life. Marcus do you really believe nobody at AA is making money? Look at whos involved with recovery and the answers will come to you. See its a lot easier for a counselor to have someone go to AA than really get to the root problems and work on those with the individual. Heres AA's number and let me know how you're doing. That's a lot easier than using your degree and having to work for you money.

“It does not matter what are the motives of people here in regards to [debunking] AA.” – jackass #1

What motivates me personally to speak up in forums such as this is to ensure that the public, including those who still struggle with alcohol and drugs, are aware that there are people who have resolved their issues outside of AA and 12 steps. The only reason that doing so is even necessary is because it is very often (not always and not by everyone) presented that AA is "the only way". That specific message is conveyed as a matter of fact - in various ways, by many treatment centers, mental health counsellors and aa members. It is simply not true and is a very hurtful, dangerous and irresponsible statement to make to an individual who is incompatible with aa/12 step philosophy. It leaves them with zero options and zero hope. That is wrong. Many people simply quit on their own - even those who's struggles became as desperate, seemingly hopeless and had close run ins to death too many times to count. I am evidence of that - as are many others. I need no statistics to prove it, I have myself. I am not an advocate for a specific alternative. I did it on my own with a support system within my own life, which I created. I do not claim that "my way" is the only way or is compatible with everyone else. Obviously it is for some because many people do it. I am most definitely not an advocate for therapy. Although I believe there are a handful of therapists out there who are effective and work from a philosophy that can genuinely have a positive effect on individuals, I also think that there are many therapists who are as misguided, if not more misguided, than those they are claiming to offer therapy to. SMART, LifeRing, AA and other organized groups for support seem to each have a philsophy for which their support is based and therefore it seems that more people can be helped by acknowledging that NOT one way is the only way.

I don't want to invalidate anyone's efforts or anyone's philsophy. I am the first one that wants people to be proud of their efforts and accomplishments. The reason I do not personally engage in a debate with an AA members over the validity of its philosophy is because it would be contradictory to my objective, which again, is to show that there are options to people who are still struggling. I am not going to debate Tony J, for example on a philsophy which he accepts and finds comfort in, I want him to be happy. For me to target Tony J and rip aa/12 step philsophy apart, as far as I am concerned, is as unfair and cruel as it is for someone who is incompatible with aa to be told it is "the only way". If someone is comfortable and at peace within his alliance with AA, then I am genuinely happy for him. I want it to be known and acknoledged that other people find comfort in different approaches to their sobriety. It is consistent with all of life. Different strokes for different folks. It is as simple as that. I think that as other support groups expand and are more accessible and as the courts and public understanding also expands, then everyone will be a little more "free' to simply choose and follow his own path toward recovery. I also think that AA will be better for it because its members will reflect more individuals who are there because they truly want to be and truly feel compatible with its philsophy. so it seems to me that everybody wins.